2nd amendment

ianagmdc

You have to be a fool to honestly believe that the NRA actually gives a damn about the 2nd amendment. Otherwise why did it take them 100 years to hitch their wagon to the 2nd amendment. The NRA as it stands today exists for the soul purpose of funneling cash from gun manufacturers into the pockets of greedy politicians. I'm all for responsible gun ownership' But there has to be licencing regulations just as there are for automobiles. JUST WHAT THE NRA PROMOTED FOR THE FIRST !00 YEARS OF THEIR EXISTENCE.

robertp

Do I have to be a fool to believe those greedy politicians care about protecting my 2nd amendment rights.  The politicians couldn't get the money from gun manufactures if they didn't.  I would think.  So by giving the money to the politicians that support the 2nd amendment they are supporting my rights. Yes-no.

I don't think the 2nd amendment has been under attack as much as it has been recently.

ianagmdc

I'm not even attacking the 2nd amendment. It's the disingenuous way that it is being exploited that I attack. The gun industry (through the NRA) greases the pockets of politicians in order to effect legislation that will help them sell more guns, full stop. By pretending that they are some kind of charity standing for up for 2nd amendment rights, just makes a mockery of the 2nd amendment. Again, why did it take them 100 years to turn into 2nd amendment zealots. Because they new that putting assault weaponry into civilian hands would never fly unless they could get legislation that would allow it. Ergo, bribe politicians and  wrap it all up sweetly in the smoke and mirrors of 2nd amendment adoration. 

robertp

I wasn't implying you were attaching the second amendment just people in general are attacking it more lately.

I don't understand the "less guns less killing theory" because I think more people want guns for protection than they do for murder. I know it is still killing but when it is done in self defence of yourself or another innocent person it is not murder.  With all the murdering we have been hearing about lately more guns  should be encouraged.  I think.

ianagmdc

"less guns less killing" is not a theory, its a fact. Just look at other advanced countries. 

In any case I don't want to get into a spitting war with you whereby we throw statistics back and forth ad nauseum. You are a reasonable person with your own convictions. I will respectfully disagree on the gun issue and leave it at that. Nice chatting. 

robertp

I am not trying to win an argument or cause nauseum and I respect your argument.  I am trying to learn by it.  I think this topic is worthy of a discussion where we express our opinions. I am guilty of assuming you are from the USA(where I live) and am trying to understand how that fact/theory can be applied here.  If you can not explain it maybe someone else can.  I don't think there are right or wrongs because we both want less murder.

ianagmdc

Sorry, the nauseum and spitting war comment was not directed at yourself. I just recently bowed out of a discussion where someone made an untrue statement. I called him on it with actual verified facts. He refused to except that he was wrong. He kept countering with one false statement after another which I proved wrong every single time. It's that kind of wasted time that led to my nausem comment.

 Anyway you're on to me. I am Canadian. Before anyone tells me to butt out of American business please be aware the NRA also supplies funds to Canadian gun advocacy groups. They helped defeat what was known as the " the national long gun registry". The Provence of Quebec maintained there own registry which the NRA is now crying foul over. As well you shud know that 70% of guns seized from Canadian criminals, are guns that were stolen from US homes by US criminals and then smuggled into Canada. So yes I have every right to comment on your affairs.

Now Robert, of course we both want less murders, but how can more guns accomplish that? I live in a city of almost 1.5 million people. The city averages less than one gun homicide a month and it's big news when it happens. I see newspaper headlines talking about an epidemic because we have ALMOST one homicide a month. We are not saints. Horrible things happen here. We have gangs to. But I have never once felt an ounce of anxiety while walking local streets-never. Legally purchased firearms are regulated but reasonably easy to buy as long you pass background checks. Military style armory are banned. No one feels that their liberties are at risk. You ask for help in understanding on how fact/theory can be applied in the US. I  can't answer that. It's obviously not a black and white issue. It's just that as an observer, I don't understand why the gun status quo has to be written in stone and cannot be challenged. To me more guns is just more guns for criminals to steal, and more guns to be used in domestic violence.

Okay I'm going to shut up know. I know I haven't really said anything the is really helpful other than to say there has got to be a better way. I not bashing America, I just ache for you. If you have read this far I am soory for the ramble. It just kept coming and I couldn't. I'm shutting up NOOOOW!  :))

robertp

Just knowing that you care is helpful to me.  Thanks for the response.  If it helps, I keep my guns and riffles locked in a secure safe when not in use.  Nothing is scarier to me than if a criminal or child or someone who doesn't understand guns would get hold of one.

We not only live in different countries but different types of communities.  My nearest neighbors are 1/2 ,1, and 3 miles away.  I also live in a gun friendly state (Nevada).  It is no surprise we view guns and gun ownership in different ways.  I admit I have a bias toward guns. I don't think of them as violent because everything I do with them is to prevent violence or hunt. The people I know who own guns are the same way.  The thing I want to promote is not so much guns, as responsible gun ownership.  I realize this is not for everybody because a lot of people don't want to think about guns. To keep guns from violent people seen like a very difficult thing to solve.  I welcome any comments or suggestion you or anyone might have.

ianagmdc

After all is said and done it turns out we are both on the same page. I don't like guns but I absolutely have no problem with responsible ownership as evidenced by yourself and your neighbors and all other responsible gun owners. I to grew up in a small town. My father was probably the only man in town who didn't own a hunting rifle.

Yet I had no fear of those who did own guns. Its just the way it was. But now I see so many crazy people making so many crazy statements (both pro and anti) that it just scares the hell out of me. No one seems to be willing to set foot on common ground to try and solve some problems. That is what I just don't understand. Again I know that I haven't offered much help, but hey at least I was shorter this time.

robertp

It scares the hell out of me too but probably for different reasons.  This may sound crazy but I think we need to arm all law abiding people that are trained with guns and take the guns away from criminals.  We could call it Gun Control Day.  We could celebrate it bi annually or quarterly because I don't think it will take them too long to get them back. I know it sounds crazy And maybe even a little sick (or a lot )but I would like to know what you think because the alternative of giving up my gun is just too scary.

ianagmdc

The problem is that everybody is a law abiding citizen...until their not. Just ask the many women who are shot dead by otherwise law abiding husbands. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of women who are threatened with gun violence by their otherwise law abiding intimate partners. Maybe a more cut and dried solution would be to have automatic life sentences for anyone convicted of ANY KIND of gun violence including threatening. I think that would make "law abiding citizens" and "bad guys" think twice about having a gun in their possession. After conviction and sentencing, life sentences could be negotiated down depending on pre-set rules. But the possibility of life behind bars should be first and foremost. I would suggest that severe laws like this would actually reduce prison populations because the penalty would be so severe that it would be a deterrent. Of course this will never happen. 

Something happened to me about 40 years ago that I had completley forgotten about. I have in fact stared down the barrel of a gun (two guns at the same time in fact). I unwitting walked into a liquer store while a robbery was in progress. There were two robbers with hand guns. Both turned their guns on me and told me to freese (I was the only customer). You better believe I froze. Any way they forced the two employees to empty the till and a small safe. They ran off after getting what they came for. Police arrived within minutes. Here's the part you might find hard to belive. To this day I thank God that I did NOT have a gun on me. Because if I did I probably have done something stupid and gotten myself involved in a gun fight. Chances were good that one or two people could have ended up dead, UNCIUDING MOI...Instead no one got hurt, the robbers where eventually tracked down and convicted. I testified at their trial. Like I said I was sooo glad that I didn't have a gun. After that experience, it never ever entered my mind to aquire a gun for protection and I have never felt unsafe sense then. Thats the difference between the way you look at things and the way I look at things. 

(((The funny part of all this is that I never got the booze I went in for. After spending an hour with police, I went into a bar next door to calm my nerves over a beer. The robbery was the talk of the bar, but no one knew that I was involved. I was not a regular and sat alone. The next thing I know a bar regular walks into the bar and yells "this is a stick-up". While everyone was having a good laugh, I almost had a heart attack because I really thought it was happening again. If ever I wanted to use a gun, it would have been to shoot that smartass.LOL.)))

Thanks for listening.

ZincChlorideUSA

Less guns less killing? Lol

Except every left wing, Islamic, or Catholic nation throughout history.

Over 250,000,000 dead in the past 159 years due to left wingers... And it started by taking guns away.

ianagmdc

Your history lesson notwithstanding, yes less guns equals less killing in today's modern developed nations. Not a single statistic or study proves otherwise. None of these nations actually 'ban' guns. 

robertp

Sorry I posted my other comment in the wrong thread.  Because I have limited internet use I compose my comments off line and then posted it in the wrong thread.

The point I was trying to get across is that my training
teaches me that drawing my gun would only escalate the situation into a deadly situation because these types of criminals really don’t want to murder anyone.
They just want to get the money and get out of there.

More importantly I was trying sell you on the idea of
starting a thread where someone could 
post a comment if they felt threatened  (by someone with a gun) and were afraid to go
to the police and they could be advised what they should do.  Or if someone with a gun felt like they were
going to do something with a gun because they were wronged by someone.  It is a way to treat troubled law abiding citizens
before they become criminals or victims. 
I don’t have the details work out but it would help law abiding people
from becoming violent criminals or murderers. 
Making laws will only take guns away from law abiding citizens and does
not address the problem because we know criminals will steal them.

ianagmdc

Okay, it's a start and I commend you for your intentions.

tangascootac

@ianagmdc & similar thinkers: These students, the mouthpieces for the racous anti-firearms outburst since Parkland, are being used & played by the hard left, although most have no idea of what's actually occurring. Public school age kids simply lack the knowledge & resources (particular the millions of $$$ required) to accomplish anything resembling that which took place in DC on March 24, and the language & 'talking points' of the spokes-children.  The National Rifle Association of America played absolutely no role in Parkland or any of the attacks in educational facilities & public locales which have occurred over the past nineteen years since Columbine.  The Broward County Florida calamity was the end result of Obama's abhorrent PROMISE initiative in combination with a collapse of law enforcement agencies at local, state and federal levels; the more recent emergence of a would-be murderer in Maryland demonstrates the completely opposite outcome which resulted from a single responsible & well-equipped police officer/ex Navy SEAL who acted precisely as required in order to prevent any loss of life among students & faculty.  

tangascootac

And no other country/nation anywhere possesses the quantity of firearms as do we citizens of the US --- probably more than 320 million of them --- yet with so relatively few total fatalites annually; remove the homicide rates in a small number of cities (St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, New Orleans, Birmingham) and murder figures are quite low.  Guns in the hands of lawful individuals aren't a menace to the general public but ARE a threat to those whose intent is that of harming innocent individuals.

ianagmdc

@ianagmdc & similar thinkers: First off, do not paint me with any kind of brush. I am both the most liberal conservative and the most conservation liberal you will ever know. Secondly, I have not uttered a single word about the Parkland students in any of my posts. So why are you giving a rebuttal on something that I have not even mentioned?

ianagmdc

Yes the US is ranked as number one in the world for per capita gun ownership. It also ranks 28th out of 186 countries for highest homicide rate per capita. Aprox 8,000 homicides annually are non-gang related. I don't advocate for total gun ban, but I wish people would stop playing the "law abiding gun owner" card because the vast majority of homicides are committed by otherwise law abiding gun owners.

tangascootac

@ianagmdc: Kindly provide corroboration of your final sentence, because that claim has long been an unsupported/unsupportable assertion of the hard left.